And Now for Something Completely Different

The South Lost

Posted Monday, November 15, 2010, at 10:14 AM

I have lived in the South for a majority of my life. Even as a child I never understood the flags that people flew that represented the South. I had always learned (in the great liberal institutions) that the Confederacy had lost the war and was no longer a country.

Then why? Why were people still flying flags representing a country that did not even exist?

I have always heard that the Confederate flag stood for many things, rebels, state's rights, a certain way of life. To me it has always stood for racism and slavery, nothing more nothing less.

It has always amused me when I hear some of the same people that fly the Confederate flag complain when they see a sports star displaying the flag of their home country rather than the United States. I doubt that they would understand the blatant hypocrisy so I have never actually attempted to explain it to them.

One thing that has always bothered me is all the talk of how brave these men in the southern states were. The last time I checked secession is a crime in the Constitution. They violated the Constitution yet we are supposed to honor them? Yes they were fighting for states rights but for a cause that was immoral at best, keeping the institution of slavery going.

There has always been a question of who actually started the Civil War. The facts in this case are that the South seceded from the Union, the United States still had a military post in South Carolina that they were holding. The Confederate Army fired upon that military post and the war began. Trying to discern from that who was to blame is quite tricky. Was the United States to blame because they chose to stay a military post that was technically in another country? Was the South to blame for firing on a United States military post, no matter where it was located?

What is most interesting about the war is that Lincoln never actually freed all slaves. He only freed slaves in the South, with the Emancipation Proclamation, but that was in a time of war, and the areas that he freed the slaves were in another country at the time. He did not free the slaves in the bordering slave states that never seceded. He also did not free the slaves that were in the South but were controlled by the Union.

In the end, it can be said that the reason that a lot of people in the South still have issues with letting go is the treatment by the United States government over the South following the war. The Democrats (and Lincoln) favored total re-admition to the Union in an effort to get past the unpleasantness of the war. Andrew Johnson and the Republicans, however, wanted the South to pay for daring to secede from the Union. We never got a chance to see what Lincoln's plan would have been or if it would have made things easier for all involved, but we did get to see Johnson's plan come to fruition.

The South was divided into military districts until a state had crafted a new Constitution. Once the state was re-admitted into the Union a new state government was formed, often with politicians not even from that state.

The South was left in economic ruin and the federal government under Andrew Johnson did absolutely nothing to help them. This is a large reason why the Democratic Party held power for so long in the South. It was the Democratic Party that came to the rescue in the 1780s after a decade of Republican rule throwing the carpetbaggers out of the South.

In the end, though, the Confederacy had lost the war and the country was no more. I bristle when I hear cries of "The South shall rise again" or the even more inane "The South won the war", because it is coming from people that say they love the United States. I do not understand it. Maybe I am not supposed to.

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Sadly, when you ask a prejudiced person for truth, that truth seems to fit perfectly that 'prejudice.' Muddy the waters, from millions of sources, and prejudices, into a swamp, how can one now find the clean truth entombed there??

Even when a person reads books written, from that time, the prejudice is there, no matter the skill in which the truth is entombed.

The Southern mindset has not liked the Northern mindset, and the Northern cannot fathom the Southern; yet we still be of 'One Nation, Under God.' That is the Key, to our Republican form of Government. that 'discontent' seems, in my opinion, to finally melding into less violent attitudes, and beliefs. But then, I, too, may have a prejudice that I do not fathom (Sailor talk, for I ain't not perfect either). God knows.

Good food for thought, Michael. May we all learn to bury misunderstanding, and hatreds, so understanding may heal.

-- Posted by Navyblue on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 11:24 AM
Well since you are the one that brought up PC I guess you would know. I probably left the American flag story out because it had absolutely nothing to do with the above blog.

I actually agree with the suspensions but not for the reason I assume you believe I do. I believe if you look at the United States flag code you will see quite clearly that "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel".

But hey why stop there. I have seen several instances in the past few years of sports teams and fans using the American flag for their own purposes. Members of the TEA Party were notorious for flying the flag upside down even though their lives at that point in time were not in severe distress.

I don't believe the flag should be used as anything but a flag and a symbol.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-code.html

If you want to go ahead and support the South, you go ahead and do it. I know you said no such thing but isn't it amazing what you can get people to believe when you frame something someone else has said in a way that you can tear down, just so you can tear them down?

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 12:37 PM
I'm sure the General Lee wasn't designed to showcase racism but rather the rebellious nature of southern pride. They scream "The South will rise again" at sporting events too but I know they aren't talking about slavery. That flag and the chants have had their meaning altered over the years. Some people have caught onto that fact and others refuse to acknowledge that fact.

There are two minorities who still see it as a symbol associated with slavery, racism or a separate country from the US and those minorities are the actual racists and people like Mike who think it still means what it used to. Southern pride associated with their chant and flag is either something you get or something you don't. Mike, you obviously don't get it but you don't have to belittle people because you don't get it.

I'm not even from the South but I get it and think they can do what they want with their flags and chants.

These days, the overwhelming majority of people who fly that flag are not supporting the idea of separation from the US or slavery, just Southern pride. Maybe the best way to explain it is that the South kept the flag but changed what it represents to them and that's something they should be proud of too. They have done more to kill the prior symbolism of that flag more than anyone who would just demand it be taken down or not displayed.

-- Posted by McCook1 on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 1:17 PM
If you would have bothered going to the link ocho you would have seen quite clearly that a patch does not violate the code. Good attempt at a gotcah, though.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 2:11 PM
"There are two minorities who still see it as a symbol associated with slavery, racism or a separate country from the US and those minorities are the actual racists and people like Mike who think it still means what it used to."

The South can change the meaning to the flag all the want to, that doesn't mean I have to accept it, but apparently in your reality if someone changes the meaning of something everyone must fall in line or be castigated for it.

It's very funny that you get on to me for belittling people yet that is all your entire post was, belittling people who still see the flag for what it is and not what you want them to see it as.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 2:14 PM
Mike,

Reading this blog really clears up why you weren't able to keep your last teaching job for me. If this is the approach you have to history, it's probably better for the children of Arkansas if you aren't teaching. Within your post you have contradictory and mutually exlusive claims.

You say that it is illegal to secede from the United States, if one takes you at your original word, how could there be a question about who started the war? If South Carolina didn't have the authority to leave the Union, how could they have the authority to claim that they were a separate country? How is this tricky?

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 2:58 PM
Mike,

You admitted that you didn't get it and I affirmed your statement. Why is that a problem? I didn't even say that you had to understand it but simply said not to belittle others because you don't understand it.

|didn't state that your view made me "bristle", didn't call you a hypocrite nor did I state how your views amused me. Yet, I'm the one belittling you? I simply explained the other side that you, admittedly, do not understand and refuse to accept. I didn't refuse to accept that you view the Confederate flag differently than others in the South. In fact, I acknowledged that you see the flag in that way and that acknowledgment was even included in my quote that you used when I said that you are one of the two minorities who interpret the meaning of that flag the same. The two minorities are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to their opinion on the merit of the meaning they associate with it but still interpret it to represent slavery and racism.

I never knew you thought offering up the other side of an issue constituted castigation. The only thing I may have castigated you for was belittling people because they don't agree with your view but I never once did so because of your view itself.

-- Posted by McCook1 on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 3:54 PM
This statement of yours SW convinces me of why I never really need to debate with you. You are simply incapable of talking to someone you disagree with without personally attacking them.

The truth is you have no idea about my method of teaching, nor does this blog give any indication of how I teach. My teaching life is separate from my regular life. I don't teach on here, there really isn't a point, especially when there are people like you, who instead of debating a point straight out, start out with a deeply personal attack.

I refused to even read the rest of your comment. I would like to think you regretted the baseless attack after you posted, but seeing no retractions I guess I am left to assume that you would rather attack someone and their profession simply based off their beliefs before getting to your main point. Maybe this means that you don't think your point has an validity or is weak. I don't know, and frankly I couldn't care less.

I'm sure this is where you will say that I am taking my ball and going home rather than debate you. You can go ahead and think that. It doesn't mean it is true, but I have figured out that truth really has no place on this blog, as long as it is contradictory to a certain way of thinking.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 12:33 AM
You go ahead and believe what you want to believe McCook. Go ahead and define belittling where it only applies to me but leave you completely in the clear. You can belittle people without using the catchphrases. You place me in a minority but offer no proof that I am in the minority. For all you know I could be in the majority and you could be in the minority, but that doesn't help your cause so you just state as fact that my side, my belief, is obviously in the minority.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 12:36 AM
Read the code ocho, it's all there. I really don't understand what you are not getting about the Flag code. It is actually pretty clear.

If you want to know what I think personally, I think the flag should only be worn by military, police and fire officers. Why that makes me wrong, I'm not sure? How about you explain it to me.

I also believe that every oath of office should be done on the Constitution as was originally written in the Constitution, but apparently that is now heresy.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 12:39 AM
Mike you are correct. The South lost the Civil War.

-- Posted by wallismarsh on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 6:07 AM
Mike,

I am certainly capable of talking with someone I disagree with without attacking them, I did so with Guillermo several times........but wait since he also posted as characters that agreed with me at times......makes my head hurt. I don't need you to read the rest of my previous post, other people certainly have and it proves again how silly you are.

The reason you never debate with me is the same reason you never debate with anyone, you are completely convinced of your own superiority and righteousness that you refuse to accept the possibility that people could disagree with you for legitimate reasons. All you do is repeat yourself or respond to tangential parts of a person's argument without addressing the core.

So in your response to McCook, you said he belittled you by saying you were in the minority, so your response is that he is in the minority. Aren't you by your own definition belittling him?

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 8:34 AM
Mike,

Do you feel every rule should be enforced all the time or just those in the flag code?

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 10:11 AM
Ocho a lot of time would be saved if you would just simply read the code. It isn't enforceable by law. She can't be arrested.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 10:44 AM
Hey if you guys are okay with flag desecration who am I to tell you that you are wrong. Drag the flag on the ground, wear it as clothing, hang it upside down when you aren't in absolute danger. If that's what you choose to do. Just don't get upset when someone burns the flag.

I'd be happy to debate with you SW if you were capable of a debate without personal attacks. You certainly are not capable of debating someone that believes differently then you. You have proven that over and over again. I felt your latest attack on me was well over the line, you saw it as me refusing to debate with you. Whatever works for you SW.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 10:48 AM
I haven't criticized her on my blog. You posted the link to the picture and continue going back to it so I really don't see how you get that I criticized her on my blog.

I would suggest you go back and read my comments that I have previously posted but you have proven that you don't so I will state it again.

I think it is wrong to wear the American flag as clothing. The only ones that should be exempt are men and women in uniform.

There are plenty of ways to show your patriotism other than desecrating the flag by wearing it as clothing, how about, oh, holding an American flag? They have them, and they are pretty cheap, probably cheaper than that shirt that she bought.

How do you know that her wearing the shirt is an "obvious display of patriotism"? Did you talk to her? Did she give an interview? Just because someone is wearing the flag doesn't necessarily mean they are being patriotic?

I am not big on public confrontations, I think they are deplorable. If the woman chooses to desecrate the flag in that manner that is here choice. If you want to support her desecration of the flag that is your choice. All I ask is next time someone burns the flag, don't complain about it. Desecration is desecration.

"Like the children in California, should she have been sent home before she "offended" someone?"

Naturally once again (a common theme for you) you leave out the context of the story and only present the story grabbing headline.

The students were sent home because the Assistant Principal felt that the students were doing it as provocations at Mexican students who were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Much to the chagrin of a lot of alcoholics in this country, Cindo de Mayo is not a go out and get drunk day for Mexicans, it is a cultural day for them.

As one student said, ""We don't deserve to get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/05/tensions-high-in...

Was it a provocation? They were teenage boys and teen boys love to do things that will cause stress in others. Was the school wrong and a little over the top for sending the boys home? More than likely. Should the boys or anyone else been wearing the American flag as clothing? No.

Here's the bottom line ocho, I believe that wearing the flag as clothing is disrespectful to not only the flag, but this country.

I'm sorry that you disagree but that's your right.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 12:08 PM
Mike,

"This statement of yours SW convinces me of why I never really need to debate with you."

Followed by a later post: "I felt your latest attack on me was well over the line, you saw it as me refusing to debate with you."

No, I saw your refusal to consider my post as you refusing to debate, just as you said.

You also said: "who am I to tell you that you are wrong" I'm glad you are finally coming around, now I look forward to you not telling people they are wrong when it comes to opinion.

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 12:17 PM
Is it disrespectful for people to wear Mexican or Irish or German flags?

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 12:19 PM
"She and the children were desecrating the flag, according to you, but the "peaceful Muslims" burning our flag and celebrating in the streets when Americans die, is OK, because she and the kids wore t-shirts with a flag on them?

When protestors stand on our flag and yell obscenities at a funeral procession for a fallen soldier, it's OK, because she and the kids wore t-shirts with a flag on them?"

Talk about sad. You took all context out of my comment to make it appear that I was supporting burning or standing on a flag when any person simply reading what I actually said instead of what you just made up would know that I find it disrespectful and a desecration to do any of that.

My point was and I'm sorry I apparently didn't make this any clearer was if you are going to be fine with one form of desecration of our flag don't complain when another desecration occurs. Patriotic in intent or not desecration is still desecration.

By the way when did I ever say I hated the TEA Party? Go ahead and look but I can go ahead and tell you that I didn't. I don't hate anyone (it's one of the morals that I was blessed with) for what they believe in. I just simply point out that their entire starting point on starting the TEA Party was based on falsehoods they believed would occur under Obama, which after two years still has not.

I don't hate you but I do find the real Ocho Cinco to be much funnier and more entertaining.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 1:31 PM
Ah the good old SW is back. Asking questions that really serve no purpose. Assigning meanings to statements that are not there so he can live on the allusion that he is always right even when he is wrong.

It's good to have you back.

As far as Mexican and Irish and German flag codes, I couldn't tell you I haven't looked into it and I really am not all the concerned with it.

I'm just glad you still apparently feel that personally attacking someone and their career path is a valid debating point.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 1:35 PM
Mike,

What questions served no purpose?

What am I wrong about here?

So if you don't care about other nation's flags, is it just the fact that you looked into the American code what you feel vested in? You don't care about principles just principals? Sad and predictable that you don't have a moral stance on this just a thinly established legal one. If it is disrespectful for me to do something then in my book it is disrespectful for others to do the same thing.

Did you type this post in an attempt at sarcastic humor or are you so blind to your hypocrisy that you have no problem claiming that I am "Assigning meanings to statements that are not there" and that this is a bad thing to do. Yet then later assingning meanings to my statements that aren't there with: "I'm just glad you still apparently feel that personally attacking someone and their career path is a valid debating point." Classic!

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 2:16 PM
Mike,

Also since you refused to debate my questioning your interpretation of history because you feel I "attacked" you, I'll repost, and maybe you will debate now.

You say that it is illegal to secede from the United States, if one takes you at your original word, how could there be a question about who started the war? If South Carolina didn't have the authority to leave the Union, how could they have the authority to claim that they were a separate country? How is this tricky?

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 2:19 PM
Mike,

It's clearly evident to me that it is impossible to have a rational conversation with you without having you assuming sinister intentions into the conversation that do not exist. Perhaps it is just part of you're mindset and hence, helps explain your interpretation of this issue.

-- Posted by McCook1 on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 4:34 PM
"Hey if you guys are okay with flag desecration who am I to tell you that you are wrong. Drag the flag on the ground, wear it as clothing, hang it upside down when you aren't in absolute danger. If that's what you choose to do. Just don't get upset when someone burns the flag."

"Talk about sad. You took all context out of my comment to make it appear that I was supporting burning or standing on a flag when any person simply reading what I actually said instead of what you just made up would know that I find it disrespectful and a desecration to do any of that."

Mike,

Please stop takeing people out of context if you want to complain about people taking you out of context. You are making the left look bad.

-- Posted by Sir Didymus on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 8:41 PM
I don't feel that you attacked me SW, you went after my career choice and then just to make sure I understood your point you go on to say that I shouldn't be teaching children in the first place (how you would know the circumstances of me not teaching even though I have never discussed that is beyond me).

Seriously, you can't even admit when you have made a personal attack? Instead of admitting the personal attack you attempt to turn it into an opinion. Why don't you just admit that you did it?

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 11:34 PM
Didymus I don't believe I took anyone out of context. I believe that wearing the American flag as clothing is desecrating the flag, it's my opinion.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 11:35 PM
"Sad and predictable that you don't have a moral stance on this just a thinly established legal one. If it is disrespectful for me to do something then in my book it is disrespectful for others to do the same thing."

I have no clue what you are attempting to say. I have said several times that I find it disrespectful to wear the American flag as clothing. What is your point? I do have a moral stance on this. I believe I have made this perfectly clear.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM
"In the end, though, the Confederacy had lost the war and the country

was no more...."

Who, in a world of nations has the right to conquer another nation,and force the people of that nation into subjugation.

Secession was not then, and is not now, illegal to the constitution of the union.

Simply because a people and their nation have been conquered does not automatically mean that they should or must relinquish aspirations of their own sovereign nation,nor does it mean that they should relinquish their love for the symbols of that nation. It also does not mean that the occupiers of that conquered nation should malign those symbols into a meaning that covers and hides the real reason for the war fought.

The South fought the war in self defense in order to perpetuate Constitutional Liberty and self determination of the Confederate nation.The north fought to preserve the union of states,when this reason lost momentum they fought to abolish the institution of slavery a reason the gained more war support.So there is two reasons the war was fought, and they are as different as the nations that fought it.

"Vindiciamus"

-- Posted by Vindiciamus on Sun, Nov 21, 2010, at 7:25 PM
In the end the South lost. That's the bottom line. There is no occupation, if there is then it is the single longest running occupation in the history of the world.

If you two believe, as you have stated, that the South is being occupied, or never lost the war, or any other argument that you hold, then why attempt to claim to be attempting to save the Union now. You both have clearly stated just how evil the United States is so why be loyal to this country?

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Sun, Nov 21, 2010, at 11:56 PM
"In the end the South lost..."

Yes, the South lost (and with it so did the yankee north when it comes to the founders intended form of self governance) and yes I am against the union if it is a forced union (which it is, and has been since the our ancestors lost ).

"There is no occupation..."

If you check history and governance you will find the Confederacy never surrendered the war. It was the Generals of the army of the Confederate States of America the simply gave up the fight in order to help preserve the Confederate spirit and continue the bloodline of a new Nationality. President, Jefferson Davis never surrendered the government it just stopped functioning.

"if there is then it is the single longest running occupation in the history of the world."

On this point sir, you are correct.

"If you two believe, as you have stated, that the South is being occupied, or never lost the war, or any other argument that you hold, then why attempt to claim to be attempting to save the Union now."

Believe this, it was mostly Southern born/bread men that framed the Constitution. Those ideologies of Constitutional Liberty and protected rights for all,(I know here comes your slavery issue) It is not necessarily that we wish to "save" the union, I could care less what happens to the union, it is the form of government that we try to save. The principle contained within Representative Republic, this form of democracy was specifically created as the antithesis of the other form of democracy "parliamentary in style" and automatically socialist in substance. Democracy rule was not the intent of the founders nor is it with me, where my rights may be taken because three is greater than two.. My main reason for the apologia (not to be construed as apologize) of Confederate Heritage is that upon close scrutiny in a fare court of law it was, and still is, the yankee breed that is wrong. It is also my personal belief that in those days it was the republican governing principles/ideologies, those not consistent with the principles contained within our form of governance Representative Republic or powers enumerated to it by the Constitution. I guess in short we are doing what our ancestor did and trying to protect our Constitution (form of government).

You both have clearly stated just how evil the United States is so why be loyal to this country?

We have to save Yankees in order to save ourselves. Remember we lost, or is it still going? Longest occupation and longest cold war (closer to freezing because we are, losing now that yankees are loosing) in history. The Confederacy may have lost the hot war but politically it still has influence. you can belee dat yo!

-- Posted by Vindiciamus on Wed, Nov 24, 2010, at 8:25 PM
"you can belee dat yo!"

This was unexpected.

-- Posted by Damu on Thu, Nov 25, 2010, at 12:13 AM
LOL!

-- Posted by Vindiciamus on Thu, Nov 25, 2010, at 9:45 AM
The main reason we MUST save our true form of governance is because it is what makes us "Americans" Confederate and yankee alike.Remember there were yankees that helped to frame the Constitution so we in effect owe them consideration when it comes to the principles of self governance,but the founders actualy constructed a "NEW" self-governing ideology the first of its kind on earth.By doing this America or those States over there on the left shore of the british realm that are politicaly and economicly dependant on each other agree by contract/Constitution.This "IS" what makes America America and Americans Americans.

-- Posted by Vindiciamus on Thu, Nov 25, 2010, at 9:59 AM
The Flag Code, though not enforcable under any criminal/civil law, is what I was taught in Red Willow County as the guide patriotic Americans followed to show respect for the flag, the symbol of our great nation. It's sad that that tradition is evidently no longer honored by most Americans.

People have the right to fly whatever flag they choose in our country, but even after ready all of the info posted previously, can find no reason a patriotic American would want to fly the Confederate Flag.

-- Posted by ontheleftcoast on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 11:59 AM
Because it is the other, American flag.How blind can one be?

-- Posted by Vindiciamus on Fri, Dec 3, 2010, at 10:37 PM

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